Zero Quality Signal--Have tried everything I can

[avg1joe]

1) Permanently move the dish off the roof to somewhere you can comfortably reach it. Ideally this will be a plumb metal pole sunk in concrete deep enough that the frost doesn't change the plumb. Is the pole you are using plumb with no play in it?

2) Move the satellite box and a small tv out next to the dish and hook it up.

3) You are getting off track.
-Aim for your southern bird it is C AND KU band. You already knew that because you mentioned the strong KU transponder for that bird.
-Signal level means little.
-Quality means everything
-You can't have quality without choosing a valid transponder for whatever bird you are aiming at. You had chosen 11740v 30000 on 116.8w and were looking for quality for that transponder. Unless that same transponder is coincidentally live on surrounding satellites you will not get any quality from them.

4) Dishpointer.com Have you clicked on the tab above? Fill in your address. Zoom in. Move the mark on the map to exactly where your dish is. Choose the satellite you're aiming for. Follow the line and find a real world landmark to aim your dish at. Drop a weighted string off your lnbf if you need something to help you line things up.

My guess is that you are close to where you need to be but flopping back and forth past the sweet spot. The sweet spot is small. It is much easier to find that sweet spot with the tv right next to the dish.

 

[Ironsides]

nice

Sweet Dish and pretty cleaver to use the exhaust port! The mast pipe needs to be prefectly plumb and you checked that so it's ok. Make sure when you are using your compass it isn't being distrubed by near by metal objects. Your sat meter appears to be Analog and if it is, they are very hard to use at first. You have to really learn and understand what the Attn is for and how it works. Go to the LIST and use the LIST and enter in your zip for the satellite you are wanting to find it will tell you the degrees your compass should read. That will get you really close. The Lnb arm can be your aim guide sit behind your dish and sit your compass as level and flat as possible, and aim...I almost forgot to mention, it would make your life much easier to get the dish on the ground and mounted on a mast pipe. It would also make life easier for you to have a small TV and your receiver right at your dish while you go through this ordeal of learning the sweet spot. Keep in mind you are trying to hit something the size of a VW several hundred miles away....

Hang in there, you will get it and then kick yourself over and over for not getting it sooner!

 

[TryingMyBest]

Thank you Avg Joe

The advice about zooming in on Dishpointer is great. Can you elaborate on what you mean by dropping a weight from the lnb? How exactly do I use that to point and aim the satellite dish?

Also, how do I know which is an active or strong transponder? Just trial and error?

I can't take it off the roof or get a tv up there (don't have a small one unfortunately). So will have to rely on signal meter--or is it better having a second person watch the tv? That I can arrange

Thank you for you great ideas and your patience

 

[TryingMyBest]

Oh forgot, regarding pole

Yes it is plumb, does not move. It was attached to an existing pipe. I checked for plumb all around. I would say the smallest corner of the bubble, really small, is off a bit. How much does something like that matter?

 

[turbosat]

Trying, do you have the transponders from The List, above, some of them at least , entered in your reciever's TP list for 97W ? Here's a good one: 12152 Horiz, 20000 Symbol rate, that'll get you Russia Today (its in english) and some other channels. If you can watch the receiver while sitting on that tp, you should be able to find that one. I'm with the others though, you'd find it quicker by taking that motor off, mounting the dish to the pole first. Setting up stationary dish is easier for beginner, the lnbf skew is at zero, all you have to do is find the right elevation, move the dish slowly back and forth until you see signal activity.
It IS frustrating at first, adjusting elevation up and down a fraction , waving the dish back and forth. But you will get it. Then just measure the angles, mark the pole and mount where you find it, and go back to the motor install.

 

[TryingMyBest]

Thank you Ironsides and turbosat

Unfortunately I am stuck with the setup I have now, but will get somebody to watch the TV to the transponder suggested. So is that why it is so hard to find anything with the motor on--the lnb "skew"? (What is that?).

OK so if I get it without the motor, how do I reset it with the motor attached and reacquire?

I will have to wait 2 days to do this as it is supposed to rain rather hard for 48 hours, so will post back after trying all the suggestions.

Thank you kindly to everybody for all the help and support. I am humbled and grateful to you all

 

[TryingMyBest]

Thank you turbosat, I will try it without the motor first

as others have suggested. If you can give me details on how to retain the exact position, so that I can reposition with the motor, I will be good to go. I know a magnetic inclinometer was advised and I plan to get one.

 

[Tron]

'Skew' means twisting the LNB in its holder for proper reception of linear signals. This is only necessary on a fixed (non-motorized) dish, and you would twist (or skew) the LNB toward the East for satellites East of your true South and West for satellites West of your true South. With a motorized setup, your skew should be set at '0' (LNB straight up and down, not twisted toward either direction), since the bend in the motor shaft skews the entire dish automatically as it pans across the arc.

 

[B.J.]

'Skew' means twisting the LNB in its holder for proper reception of linear signals. This is only necessary on a fixed (non-motorized) dish, and you would twist (or skew) the LNB toward the East for satellites East of your true South and West for satellites West of your true South. With a motorized setup, your skew should be set at '0' (LNB straight up and down, not twisted toward either direction), since the bend in the motor shaft skews the entire dish automatically as it pans across the arc.

I agree, except that the "bend in the motor shaft" doesn't contribute to the skew, it's just the motor shaft turning that allows you to follow both the position and the skew. The bend only gives you some declination and moves the center of gravity of the dish closer to the rotation axis to reduce the torque on the motor. With or without the bend, you'd have the same skew. The most obvious example of that is a prime focus dish, which has no such bend.

 

[Musher]

TryingMyBest, thanks for putting up those pictures because I looked at them and There is one Mistake there! The LNBF holder is in the wrong spot, it should be on the end of the arm NOT on top of the arm. So the LNBF is not on the sweet spot of the dish. You need to remove the bolt and then slide it onto the end of the arm just below were it set now.
But everything looks good on your set up and remember relax and take your time and you will get it right.

Musher

 

[Ironsides]

I could be totally wrong

IMHO, TryingMyBest should take a break from working on his dish and motor. I noticed he seems to be getting more confused with each post. It also seems he is asking some of the same questions. It can be overwhelming because so much information is being thrown at him at once.

My advice would be to stop working on the dish for a couple of days and just read the thread and look for other information as well. Just relax it doesn't have to be completed over night, I realize he is in a hurry to watch tv and that I understand. I think We are adding to his confusion because some of our answers are very complex to someone who has never had any experiences with FTA.

It would be better for us to realize he has no experience and some of the terms used would confuse him totally. Not that I am knocking anyones answers and replies, it's just we tend to think because we understand that he will automatically get it. He needs a simple reply laid out in a step by step format as to how to setup his dish without a motor and then with the motor attached. I realize he needs to learn the correct terms and understand what they mean but some of it can come later.

Right now what he needs is to learn how to walk before he runs and to take a simple step by step plan. Another words take baby steps, and I do not mean that with any disrespect because we all have to start at step one when we started out in this hobby. Some people have a natural ability to understand very technical and complex problems while others need a push in the right directions.

1. Make sure the mast is plumb, don't ask why just make sure it is plumb in the future you will understand if the mast isn't plumb it will throw your dish off the satellite belt. It has to be plumb if it didn't matter responders wouldn't tell you it had to be prefectly plumb.

2. Set your lnbf to "0" degress, it doesn't matter right now why just do it because it is very important.

3. Take the dish off the motor and place the dish on the mast alone. Tighten the bolts enough that you can still move it either left or right. The bolts need to be tight enough that you don't have a lot of "Play". However the dish still needs to move freely left or right.

4. Use the List to get your elavation to as near as to what it says as possible, It will not be prefect but it will get you close. Never mind why just do it. Pick a satellite as close to the true south as possible for your location.

5. Point the dish to the satellite location you just read in The List. Use your compass to point the dish. If you can't read a compass correctly you are wasiting your time. Search on instructions as to how to read a compass and practice. If you do know how to read a compass you shouldn't have any problems pointing your dish. Practice by pointing the dish at objects near you by taking a bearing on a light pole or other object. Use the compass and then aim the dish just that simple. Use the Lnbf as your aim point and then point the lnb at the light pole. Please note that metal objects can cause a compass not to read correctly. Holding it in your hand could cause it not to read correctly. Several things can cause a compass to be off by several degrees. It's best to lay it down and as flat and level as possible away from metal objects. I use a small cut of wood to place my compass on just for ref...

6. Get off the roof go inside and set your receiver to installation and pick the satellite you are pointed at. Make sure all your settings are correct on your lnbf, diseqc and then after you have confirmed everything is correct you pick out an active transponder to work with. If you don't understand how to setup your receiver you are wasting your time on the roof at the dish. You must frist learn how to use your receiver. It isn't plug and play, you can't just turn it on and expect it to work. You have to put in some information and it has to be correct in order for it to see what you are pointed at. The settings depend on the type of Lnbf you have and what switches are in line. They also depend on the satellite settings, you may have to add in an active transponder manually if it isn't on your receivers list.

7. You need someone at the receiver whilst you work at the dish this is so very important. You need someone there who can see the quality signal. You need someone who will react quickly and advise you when they see the signal appear on the transponder. You have to understand how important it is to have someone help you.

The above is not intended to be a guide for you or anyone else it is just an example for you to consider. I haven't even started to lay out a plan for you but rather give you things to consider. Setting up a dish can be very easy or very difficult it just depends on what approch you take. Some prefer the very complex and technical approch while the majority of users tend to not care about the details just so it works. Think simple and lay out a plan starting with learning your receiver and then move to the dish.

If you follow the advice of those here that have experience you will not have any problems. If you ignore the advice of those here it is possible you will have issues and a difficult time.

You need to sit back an make a plan and lay it out A, B, C and make sure you complete each step before moving to the next one. Understand the steps you take before you move on...

Good Luck


I think I have said more today than I have in several years...

 

[granadaguy]

Hope this can help you.

Where am I going wrong? How can the signal meter indicate a signal and yet I still get zero quality on all satellites? Shouldn't some satellite have some quality, given what the signal meter is telling me?



Thank you[/QUOTE]

" Why you have signal but not quality ",... regarless of what signal you have found ( meaning satellite ) your receiver doesn't see it ( meaning picture ).

Your receiver has blind scan, do a blind scan of the signal you have found and see what channels do you get, that will tell you where you at in reference to the arc.... once you find out where you at in relation to the arc, all you have to do is sart programing satellite locations in the receiver ( always remember satellites are 2 degrees apart from each other ) and you'll be all set.
Keep reading at all the advice the experts ( wich I'm NOT one of them ) are telling you...you'll be enjoying this hobby soon enough.
Yes signal is important, if you don't have signal you'll be LOST in space.

Good luck.
Granadaguy.

 

[Phottoman]

This may be an over simplification, but have you been to dishfinder.com yet? Look at the VERY TOP of this page we are on, there are tabs you can click on, one of these is "Dishfinder.com."

Type in your exact address, including the house number and street, city and state and zip. It's OK to do this, you aren't signing up for any spam email or anything like that, follow the directions as seen on that site.

Go to the list of satellites and find the one closest to your due south and do NOT worry about having a compass at this point. look carefully at the map and picture that comes up. Click and HOLD your mouse button and move the indicator to EXACTLY where you are placing your dish.

Now, look at the picture carefully, you'll see everything in your neighborhood, look for trees, telephone poles, anything you recognize as see-able from your location on the roof AT the dish.

Point the dish in the direction shown and line up with a recognizable landmark. Now start looking for that satellite.

I hope this makes things a little easier for you, using the tools you have on hand and seeing what you are doing.

And one small thing, you said you don't have a small TV to take up on top the roof. Ask around to your neighbors, someone somewhere just may have a small TV, just run an extension cord (or several connected together) up to the roof, and connect the FTA receiver and TV to the dish. PLEASE believe us when we say THAT is the way to go. I have seen WAY to many friendships strained from people yelling back and forth when trying to line up a dish that way. Borrow a small TV, or buy one.

You don't need audio when you set up your dish with a small TV, only the picture of the setup screen.

Baby steps.

Photto

 

[LoTech]

TMB,

I remember the frustrations that I had when I started. It wasn't that long ago. Some of the others here may remember me asking "stupid" questions. The fact is they weren't stupid. Unfortunately there is no "Big Book of FTA" that explains everything concisely with descriptions, pictures, and a big reference section with information specific to every type of dish, lnb, and receiver. That's why we have SatelliteGuys.

First off, Musher was right. Your LNB bracket is mounted in the wrong position. (Good eyes Musher.) If you will look at the attached picture, the LNB bracket should be mounted in front of the arm instead of on top of it. If you move this it may solve all of your problems. I would try this before disassembling your motor from your dish. From your pictures it looks like everything is set up right except for the LNB bracket.

Second, if working on the roof is your only option, I would use a set of walkie-talkies or frs/gmrs radios. This way you can be in constant contact with the person watching the TV, and you won't have to yell.

Third, I would use transponder 11740V/30000. It's a data transponder, so it won't have any tv channels, but it is very strong on Satmex 5 and will help you locate the satellite. Once you fine tune on this transponder, you should be able to blind scan the rest.

If all else fails... sit back, relax, and have some strawberry pie. Epiphanies often come while you are relaxed and well fed.

 

[B.J.]

Please excuse if they come out too large

I looked at the pictures you posted. My first impression is WOW, that SG2100 is REALLY different from mine, particularly with respect to the mount that holds it, and where the screw holes are, etc (see below)

The second thing, however, is that I'd really suggest that you check out the angles on that motor with an inclinometer or protractor or something. When I look at the pictures, I see that you're lining up what looks like pointers in the slot to the latitude or elevation angles, setting that on 33/57, however when I try to measure the angle on your picture, it sure looks to me like the actual angles are more like 42/48 instead. Perhaps this is just an optical illusion, but it sure looks to be closer to 45 than to 33/57. Anyway, I'd suggest measuring the angle of that line where the motor case separates. It should be ~ 33 relative to vertical or 57 relative to horizontal.
On MY SG2100, the angle indicator is actually on a prong on the washer, not on the case body. It sure looks like that pointer is the indicator, but it sure looks like the angle is wrong. Anyway, probably just an optical illusion, but I'd check that out with an inclinometer.
Also http://eskerridge.com/bj/FC90-sg2100.html might be of some help, even though a different model of SG2100.

 

[Lak7]

Don't know if this was mentioned.....
The SG2100 motor has a 30 degree Bend, do Dish Elevation should be set to:
30 minus Declination
Dishpointer.com has this for San Diego and SG2100 Motor:
Motor Latitude: 32.7°
Dish Elevation: 25°
Elevation: 51.9°
Azimuth (magn.): 167.7°

TMB - what do you have the Dish Elevation set to?

 

[NCElecTech]

I'm having the same problems, never have been able to get it completely
lined up (had it for 3 years years now). It seems I can get 2 or 3 satellites
and that's it.

I think the most confusing (and problematic) issues are the markings on the brackets.
I have spent untold hours trying to align my dish...many of those hours were on a
ladder. I became so frustrated with the ladder that I pulled the dish down to ground
level.

It seems the markings on the brackets are wrong, or it's upside-down? I'm suppose
to be aiming at a elevation of 48 degrees, but the dish is almost vertical? Could this
be right? Does anyone have actual angle information on the dish face?

 

[brex2001]

Don't know if this really makes a difference but an assembled dish usually has the dish elevation scale mounted with the scale right side up so it can be read - up is skyward. Check my pics.

I have the same dish, a WS9036, but am using a DG380 motor which has a 35 degree bend. My lat & long are 34n x 118w - not too distant from your location. So my dish elevation would be 35-5.5=29.5 degrees.

The little scale in the triangle shaped cutout reads about 28 degrees after peaking S&Q. There could be some error in that scale because these parts are stamped out in die & punch presses - allow for operator error.lol

After finding a strong signal(119w) with a meter, the motor at zero, pointing south, then adjusted the dish elevation by loosening the 6 bolts on either side of the bracket, slowly moved it for best signal up & down. Then went inside, entered my lat & long in the USALS menu. Moved the dish to 97w. Back outside to adjust the azimuth(L & R) until peaked. Adjust the elevation again for best quality. Slowly adjust the azimuth again for peak. Elevation once more.

Back to move the dish to a west satellite like 123 w. Recheck the dish az & el.
Moved the dish to the east again to 74 w. Back & forth until I was sure.

I was able to peak quality with my receiver, a Coolsat 7100, because in dish settings there is an extended signal option(the blue button) which displays a large bar graph & beeping signal which rises in pitch & rate as quality improved.
I could hear the changes through my window, as long as senors mow, blow & go weren't around that is. lol

If your working alone, and your receiver has a signal beep option, then maybe you could borrow a walkie-talkie, or even a baby monitor to hear the changes as you adjust things.

With my setup I'm able track from 58 w to 129 w satellites. I'm happy with it.

Just a word of caution though. I hope that isn't a band clamp around a vent pipe supporting your pole. One strong wind storm & that dish will go sailing - motor & all.

 

[TryingMyBest]

Update, and next step?

Firstly, let me say how touched, and grateful, I am to all of you. I know all of you have a life, a job, your own problems, time constraints--so I am quite moved when you all take the time to advise and give detailed, lengthy instructions.

2 other quick comments: In my original post, I was going to say "please speak to me like a 5 year old". Ironsides is spot on, and I am not in the least slighted--quite the contrary, I am grateful. I also want to say that I did not jump in to this without doing my homework, but am quite surprised at how difficult this motor issue has been. I was not prepared for the total lack of organized documentation or general information, other than this forum. My thought is that all of you should band together and write a book on this, like the "for dummies" series. Seriously, how many others like me are there out there that would value this.

Update: I read everybodys advice carefully, and am happy to report, great success WITHOUT the motor--dish mounted to the pole. Every piece of information helped immensely, and I would not be able to get to this point without all of it. AvgJoe and Granadaguy, the advice on using dishpointer was priceless. Ironsides, I am indebted.So thank you again.

I removed the motor and mounted the dish straight to the pole. I was aiming, as suggested, at 97 W, and the sat finder hummed, but I was on 101 West, which came in strong and clear. I made some adjustments and was able to receive all channels on 97 West. Quality for 101 West was 85, and only 30 on 97 West, but all channels were received.


So, to be brief, what is the next step regarding the motor? Please go easy on me, in slow English.

PS I was told to adjust my LNB orientation, and I tried, but flipping it over had it pointing down, so I went back to the original configuration, which is working. Also , when I skewed the LNB to 24 , it seemed to make things worst than the 0 position (on 97 West).

 

[Ironsides]

remember to check

Remember when you place the dish back to the Motor to reset the lnbf skew to "0" degrees if memory serves me correctly. Did you check the pictures posted concerning the mounting of the Lnbf?

I was looking at your original picture and the others and If am seeing it correctly the holder should be mounted on the front of the dish arm. However, I am not certain as the angle of the mount you have in the original is an exact fit as you have installed it.

That would be something I would check, perhaps you have a new model? I would check that because the lnbf needs to be mounted correctly as pointed out by other posters.

By the way, it is no problem to help and respond to your questions. I know exactly how you feel as I have been exactly where you are. I still ask questions and will continue to do so.

Just know you are on the best forum on the net with the very best of the best people. I would dare some of the smartest guys and gals that are involved in the FTA Hobby.

That in itself says you will succeed because with these guys behind you no chance to fail!