All about Birdview and Dish Hunting

[gm2007]

hello thats a wonderful old dish they dont make them like they use too it a very wonderful dish happy testing to all its in great shape!!!!!=)

 

[linuxman]

Thanks gm2007!!

You are right. They don't make them like this one any more.

It is a signal sucking momma!!

Found a temporary solution to the Feed Horn cover. I put the cover off the SAMI dish on it temporarily.

I also used a modified lens cover that I made as an experiment last fall. Siliconed it in place for now.

I wanted to get the original f/h cover off so I could find a substitute to make about the same size.

I wanted to ask a question about the co-rotor pictured below.

Is the off-white tri-part plastic piece that fits around the Ku cylinder, one of those dialectic inserts for circular C-Band?

Here's the pics of the modified parts:





Thanks for everyone who has provided so much help!!!

Fred

 

[Stefan]

Is the off-white tri-part plastic piece that fits around the Ku cylinder, one of those dialectic inserts for circular C-Band?

From what I can see from the picture, I'd say no. It looks more like supports to keep the Ku waveguide centered.

 

[gabshere]

It is a signal sucking momma!!

I would have to agree Mike might have the proper feedhorn cover, he has several different ones .....

 

[linuxman]

Hey Stefan,

I think you are right. I don't think it runs deep enough into the throat to be a signal straightener. It is probably just a support arm. This co-rotor is at least 15 years old, maybe more. Got it off a dish I picked up last summer.

Hey George! You are right. I need to check Mike's stock. This one is 11.5" OD at the base. It needs to be about 2" taller than what it is.

Well I think I know why the motor doesn't stop where the signal is best when arriving from the two different directions. I just didn't want to admit it and correct it.

I am intimidated by the fear of screwing up what I have already and taking a week to fix it.

I think the problem is the elevation is just a smidge too high. The reason I say that is because of the experiment this morning. By increasing the declination just a little, the signal went down.

What is happening is that I am picking up signal at a point in the dish that is just a tiny bit off center and it is too narrow for the motor to hit it with the best signal from both directions. It is fine for C-Band, but not for Ku.

By lowering the elevation, and increasing the declination just the tiniest of amounts, I think I can put the signal in a broader place on the dish and solve the problem. I am tired right now, and have been working on this thing almost non-stop since Saturday morning.

We did get the coax and power wires run this evening, so give me a few days to relax and think about it, and I will attempt to correct this problem.

If any of you have other ideas about how to fix this problem from reading this thread, please tell me what they are.

Thanks,

Fred

 

[linuxman]

Here are some recaps from previous posts in this thread. I wanted to state them again so that you collectively can help me think through the next step.

I bought a brand new magnetic angle finder today, and it says the elevation of the dish is at 37 degrees.
I checked the back of the dish and it says 42 degrees which indicates 5 degrees of declination built into this dish.

From geosatfinder my latitude is 38.94N and total elevation should be 44.9

Dish elevation from http://www.satsig.net/ssazelm.htm 44.91
Polar mount main axis angle (deg) 39.64
Polar mount dish offset tilt (deg) 5.44 declination

The old inclinometer says the elevation on the dish is at 39 degrees on the back of the dish, it is at 46 degrees. If you subtract 39 from 46, it shows 7 degrees of declination which is more than likely a false reading.

After the experiment yesterday, I can't add any declination angle without losing Ku signal quality.

After re-reading the following from http://www.geo-orbit.org/sizepgs/tuningp2.html,

One thing to remember, the deeper the dish and the larger the dish, the narrower is the central reception beam pattern (see side lobe discussion page); the implications of this is that the effect on installation is that the narrower a main beam then the more difficult it is to focus on the satellite while tuning a dish. This is not appreciably noticeable under strong footprints or sizes under 3.0m, but is noticable when tracking Ku satellites and when using a larger dish. A larger dish, for instance a 4.0m diameter dish, has a much more narrower main beam pattern than a 3.0m dish and you have to be more 'dead on' the satellite when tracking them so your elevation/declination/north-south adjustments are more critical. If you use a 5.0m dish it is real easy to loose a satellite while making mount adjustments (due to the narrow receive beam pattern) so choose the highest gain, shallowest dish when possible.

I want to try and focus on where the dish is supposed to be to eliminate the problem of differing SQ readings dependent on whether tune to the viewing satellite from the East or West.

I am going to take the new angle finder back, and try and get another one tomorrow. Hopefully from a different manufacturer.

Any suggestions on where to buy a good quality angle finder/inclinometer?

Help me think this through, and add your suggestions.

Thanks,

Fred

 

[linuxman]

Well crap!!!

I didn't get on the roof until about 2:00 PM, but I went up with the intention of fixing the problem if it meant starting from scratch.

I re-checked the mast and cap, all still plumb and not moved. I tried out my new magnetic Johnson angle finder. It showed the main elevation at 38.5 and the total on the back of the dish at 44 leaving a declination of 5.5 degrees.

That didn't jive with the suggested specs and the experiment I did yesterday with the declination.

I got smarter today. I stopped and bought a 99 cent protractor. When I got home I tied a fishing swivel to a short piece of mono-filament line and put the line through the hole in the center of the top, and put a small lead weight on the bottom of the line.

I put the protractor on the main axis of the dish and it showed 41 degrees elevation, and on the back of the dish 46 degrees total leaving a total declination of 5 degrees.

That reading coincides with the declination experiment. So I started loosening the bolts holding the elevation adjustment. This dish doesn't have an up or down screw adjustment. Just a main bolt and 4 bolts that secure it when you are done. I drew a line with a sharpie at the starting point so I could return if need be. I was afraid the dish wouldn't be balanced and I would need someone to help me move it up or down, but it was balanced almost perfectly.

I lowered the elevation about the width of the sharpie mark, (1/8") and the SQ on 12060V on G11 went from 80 down to 25, so I quit. A big storm was coming, and lightning, rain, wind etc. I tightened everything up, unhooked everything, and brought it all down to wait for the storm to pass.

As it turns out, it isn't amounting to anything but a light shower. and will soon be over.

I think at this point I can add back a half degree of declination and build back the loss of SQ and arrive where I need to be with more of the beam hitting the feed-horn and stop the side to side problem with Ku.

If I have learned anything about this, it is that if you want accuracy, you have to go back to the old way of doing things. Plumb lines don't lie!!!

People have been building with plumb lines and protractors for thousands of years.

I've got over $30.00 tied up in angle finders, and a 99 cent piece of plastic and line with a weight is more accurate.

 

[caddata]

If I have learned anything about this, it is that if you want accuracy, you have to go back to the old way of doing things. Plumb lines don't lie!!!

Truer words have never been spoken thru straighter teeth. A dull pencil is better than a sharp mind. After all, a No.2 pencil knows if a dish is Ku compatable.

By the way, some mesh dishes may have openings that are the width of a pencil in one direction but not in the other (expanded metal). Stay away from those, it needs to be No. pencil in both directions.

Keep up the reports, Fred.

Harold

 

[linuxman]

Thanks Harold!!

I will be dry enough in another few minutes for me to go back up.

I think I am on the right track. !!

Will hopefully get er done tonight!!!

 

[somery]

i think you are definately on the right track. I just wanted to ask something to DC (double check) your work. I noticed you mention when you move declination it goes down. Thats supposed to happen. You do mention changing elevation in the long run, but I was just wondering and wanting to make sure, that you do know that the change in declination will always immediately need an equal change of elevation? In other words, the change in declination will definately make the signal go down, thus requiring the opposite change to elevation. The trick I think, is to add, say one or two washers at a time(remember how strong the signal was, but ignore right after the change) then go to elevation and adjust till the strength/quality is same or better. This is on true south sat. Maybe after a change try out the sats on the east and/or west ends. This is when post #72 applies. <-- good post in which I need to follow the advice. When signal doesn't improve or if it gets worse, back out a washer or two, with equal opposite elevation. I think I'm correct?

PS just wanted to add, I like your oil clicker, the can with the spout. lol thats cute.
Oh, one more thing. Be careful about doing too much all at once. I'm a little paranoid after one day Cheffwan spent all day adjusting his dish and all the east/west moving all at once broke his actuator down. I don't know much about motors, and the wear and tear under continuous use.

 

[linuxman]

Thanks Somery,

That's good advice!!!

It came up another little shower, and so I ate while that was going on. I waited an extra half hour until the radar was clear, so I only got about another hour up there.

Here is what I have done so far.

I have added a single washer to all 6 bolts on the top of the mount after lowering the elevation earlier. It did not help. The signal dropped even lower on TS. I swung it to hispasat, and got an even higher signal than before. I swung to G10, and could hardly get anything. Moved to White Springs, and the SQ was down to 75%. Several points lower than it was.

By pushing down on the dish on WS, I could get the signal to go higher. I took the cap loose and swung the whole assembly barely a 1/16 of an inch. Still nothing much in the middle, but White Springs improved, and G10 was back at 60%. Moved to Hispasat and it was back at 75%, so that procedure did some good as far as equalizing the arc.

Just have to get the SQ back up on the TSS, and make sure the left/right problem is gone and I am done.

I am going to think a little on it tonight to see what the next move is. If it doesn't rain in the morning, I should be able to finish it tomorrow morning.

Here is the advice from post #72 by ftarock:

1. If dish needs to be pull down at both furthest East/West, you will need to increase the declination.
2. If dish needs to be push up at both furthest East/West, you will need to decrease the declination.
3. If dish needs to be push up at one side and pull down at the other, wrong truesouth....

Learn it, Love it, Live it!!!

That was the advice I was following when I made the decision to rotate the whole assembly a little to the higher point in the arc.

Thanks for everyone's assistance and advice.

You mean everyone doesn't have an oil can like that?

 

[linuxman]

It stopped raining after my question I posted about the 920, but the ground and roof was still soaking wet.

I did work in my shop and manufactured a new feed-horn weather cover. It will fit perfectly and look very much like the original except deeper. I painted it white and will decide after it is on if it needs to be black, or at least gray. The paint is drying now.

I manged to get 3 things accomplished on the roof that didn't require electronics.

By the time that was done, I could see the next rain shower in the distance, so I knew nothing else would be done today.

I installed a terminal block inside the little junction box that I always put on my dishes. I made up some jumper wires with alligator clips so when I take the receiver and VBox II up, I can just clip on and plug in.

I also replaced the 4 square headed bolts that secure the main axis elevation with new hex headed bolts.

Finally, I moved the elevation to just a hair lower than where I started and a little bit higher than where I left off last night. I will hook up the receiver at the TV after while and check signal strength.

Hopefully if the forecast is right, it says I may get a half a day tomorrow morning to finish this up. The bulk of the rain is supposed to pass through tonight and not start up again until tomorrow afternoon.

 

[linuxman]

I'm giving up trying to do anything today.

It has just now dried out enough for me to safely take electronics on the roof, and the radar shows another shower about 30 miles away headed right towards me. More coming behind it including some storms.

Tomorrow and Monday are supposed to be sunny and dry. Will go up after Church tomorrow.

Thanks to those interested and all the help!!

Fred

 

[caddata]

Fred:

A cap from a Countrytime Lemonade or Coolaid plastic container makes a neat lens cover for the mouth of a scaler feed. The containers are for the sweetened kinds of the mix. The lid is large enough to cover the throat and fits inside the first scaler ring with just a little trimming. Use a small drill (0.031" Dia.) or the tip of an icepick to make a few vent holes to allow some air circulation. A lense without some kind of vent will cause condensation problems inside the waveguide.

My experience with non-vented lenses dates back to my experiment days with homebrew feedhorns. Had fabricated a perimidal feed horn from copper sheetmetal and siliconed a clear lense over the end. Developed a "sparkle" problem that was intermittent. Found a tablespoonfull of condensation inside the waveguide. Always vented them after that without any problems with condensation or wasps.

A small styrofoam cup will also make a good temporary lense cover.

The Birdview feed support is an odd size. My weather cover was broken, so I fabricated one from fiberglass. Used posterboard to form the shape I wanted and glassed over it. I contoured the end of it into a bullet shape by orange peeling it into the curve I wanted. Made a good cover and the rounded end shape perked up the looks.

Keep up the good work and the posts, this is getting interesting.

Harold

 

[linuxman]

Hey Harold,

I'll give the lemonade lid a shot and see how it fits. The one I have on there now is working ok, but I'll have to see if it will allow me to drill some small holes in it. It is clear plastic siliconed into the rim of an old lens cap that had the center cut out.

I made my new feed-horn cover out of a new plastic 5 gallon bucket, trimmed down to 4 gallons. It is a perfect match for diameter, and about an extra 1.5" deeper than the original. I used my dremel to cut it off, and I ground off the bottom ridge and raised lettering. For all practical purposes it looks just like the original which is about a 3 gallon bucket, just deeper. I am going to pick up a can of dark gray paint later today. I decided I don't like the white.

Thanks!!!

Fred

 

[somery]

I was always wondering why some caps have those holes in it! Interesting info! I do notice variations in sparkles sometimes. I have to get on the ball with my fine tuning and weather proofing. I still don't have a cover on my feedhorn.

Linuxman, I enjoy reading about your progress , fun stuff. I enjoy working on mine, and if I have a long dish move, I periodically find myself going over to look at it move It has been raining cats and dogs here today and will be tomorrow too, I think. Finally get off work, and I can't work on it Anyway, I don't have anything constructive to say, just wanted to say I read all the posts in here, and I'm mentally cheering you on! Just be careful! Wetness, rain and roofs frighten me! Also, hope you get that solid! Solid is great, but heavy. I think a giveaway on metal makeup is, if the frame has some rust, and the dish itself has none, I'd say it should be aluminum.

 

[linuxman]

Hey Somery,

I enjoy working on these dishes too. I get impatient and tired sometimes, but this hobby is the only thing that will get me out of the house and get some exercise. I have lost almost 20 lbs. since last July when I got started.

I do Server installs, network installation and administration for a living, so I do my best work sitting down.

I have a connective tissue disorder that sometimes makes my joints hurt so bad I can hardly walk, but no matter how I feel, I'll get up and go do some work on FTA, even if it just painting a dish.

My wife and Doctor both say it is the best thing that could have happened to me.

Thanks for cheering me on!!

Fred

 

[linuxman]

Ok Guys,

Talk to me here!

I am real close!!!!

Here's what I have done since about 12:30 this afternoon.

I put two washers for declination on all six top bolts of the mount, checked with the string and protractor. (BTW I changed the fishing line for some coat thread from my wife and put a heavier sinker on it closer to the protractor, made it even more accurate) The total elevation was 45.5 and the main was 40.0 with declination of 5.5.

Had about 75% SQ on G11 12060V.
Moved to AMC3 Montana PBS and had 45%
Hispasat 12052V had 15%
129W White Springs had 30%
G10 11720V had 10%

Pulling up on the West helped a good and down on the East helped equally as well.

Swung the whole assembly to the West about 1/16 past the original mark.

Pulling up on the West, Center and East helped the SQ, so I lowered the the total elevation to 45 degrees total, 39.5 on the main, and 5.5 declination.

SQ now:

90% SQ on G11 12060V.
Moved to AMC3 Montana PBS and had 60%
Hispasat 12052V had 60%
129W White Springs had 80%
G10 11720V had 45%

It doesn't appear to help any by pulling or pushing down on either end or the center.

So tell me what do I do now?

I have great quality signal in the center and good on the ends.

How can I make it better on the ends without destroying the center?

I realize there is a compromise. So what do I add or subtract?

Add more declination? Subtract declension?

Raise total elevation? Lower total elevation?

Thanks in advance,

Fred

 

[linuxman]

I waited about 45 minutes and didn't get a response, so went back up and did some things on my own.

I kept thinking about the best signal I had previously was when I didn't have any washers installed for declination. So I took out 1 washer from each bolt, which left one washer installed for extra declination.

Combining that with the movement of the whole assembly I had done earlier is what did it.

I think I am done!! Unless someone can think of something else for me to try, I have it tuned.

Here is the SQ that I have now:
129W G27 White Springs is at 92%
123W G10 11720V is at 76%
95W G3 CCCTV is at 99%
93W G26 Doc Scott is at 60%
91W G11 my TS satellite 12060V is at 90%
87W AMC3 12144H Montana PBS is at 75%
12178V PBS is at 75%
74W SBS6 ONN is at 90+%
72W AMC6 12060V is at 90%
30W Hispasat 12052V is at 75%

The problem I am experiencing is now limited to 5 or 6 satellites at the center of the arc. G11, G26, G3, and AMC3. The channels at the ends of the arc don't do that. For instance, I can move to Hispasat and it hits the same thing every time. There is nothing further East to go to. But I can move to AMC6 from the West and get the 90%, and then move to Hispasat, and come back to AMC6 and get 90% again.

Same is true with G10 and White Springs. I can move from G11 to G10 and get 76%, then move to White Springs, get my 92%, then move back to G10, and get 76% again.

That doesn't hold true for the birds in the center. I can move back to G11 from G10, and get the 90%, move to AMC3, and get the 75% on MtPBS, move to SBS6, and move back to MtPBS and the SQ is at 30%. Then move back to G11 from AMC3 and the SQ is about 45%. It is very strange.

I haven't messed with skew on any satellite. All are set with the default 45/45.

The only thing I can say is that I have gotten Ku readings that I have never seen as high on any other dish that I own. The Primestars or the Winegard. That is with holes just a little bit smaller than a #2 pencil.

If you are going to look for a dish and want the best, IMHO try and find a Birdview. They are definitely the Cadillac of dishes.

Fred

 

[linuxman]

After thinking about the E/W problem, I have a question.

Is it possible that I don't have the magnetic wheel close enough to the sensor for the switch to get accurate pulses?

I have it a full 1/8" and perhaps slightly more from the sensing switch. I did that to be extra cautious about getting the switch into the wheel.

Thanks,

Fred