Blu-ray set-top players out-selling HD DVD

[navychop]

That link does not state that 1.1 players can have less memory. That was part of a question. The answer noted that regardless of the amount of memory, it is possible to run out, and the viewer might need to make a choice what to keep/erase.

 

[diogen]

If you just click on the link next to the referred post of jdg345, you will be taken to another where Talkstr8t says

The requirement is for the capability to support 256MB (or 1GB for BD-Live) of local storage, not that it has to be embedded in the player. It's perfectly allowable for this storage to be supported via SD or USB flash memory, off-board USB hard drive, or networked storage.

AVS Forum - View Single Post - Insiders Tracking Thread: post it here

If this is not the exact opposite to your claim,

That link does not state that 1.1 players can have less memory.

I'm offering you my condolences to your comprehension abilities.

Diogen.

 

[CochiseGuy]

That link does not state that 1.1 players can have less memory. That was part of a question. The answer noted that regardless of the amount of memory, it is possible to run out, and the viewer might need to make a choice what to keep/erase.

Perhaps this post -

Amir has already posted the link to the PDF. AFAIK all of today's players are Level 1: Xbox and Toshiba for sure, not sure about the PC players.

Would somene care to ask the BD folks for a link to a simple list of the differences between their Profiles? (There are like five profile levels now I hear).

and this post -

Before you put him on the spot , I think what Andy means is that you have 5 profiles because from content authoring point of view, now you need to accomodate every profile of the player with and without memory. In other words, in the field, you will have:

1. BD Profile 1.0 players
2. BD Profile 1.1 players with no memory
3. BD Profile 1.1. players with memory
4. BD Profile 2.0 players with no memory
5. BD profile 2.0 players with memory.

Just what they were thinking is beyond me....

make it more clear?

Yes, they were posted by Microsoft 'Insiders', but were made on Tues. 9/11, and no BD Insiders disputed it; in fact, they seem to have abandoned that thread.

 

[JoeSp]

CochiseGuy, Where are you getting your figures on the cost of the PS3. The new models do not have the PS2 chip in them, the cost of the blue laser is 1/10th of what it was when the PS3 launched last fall, going to a 40GB drive drops the price in half for the harddrive and -- oh well, I guess you think that electronics gets more expensive to produce the longer it is on the market.

Remember I said that statement was a rumor and a very big one at that. The TGS is just around the corner and we will not have to wait long to see if that is in Sony's plans for this XMAS. While I personally don't see this happening it could fit a market out there that everyone including M$ has said is there and Sony is ignoring it.

I am glad that you are happy with your HD-DVD. There is just not enough current titles coming out on HD-DVD to make me happy. And certainly having only 4 or 5 exclusive releases of current movies this fall is not enoungh to make me lust after HD-DVD. There will be plenty on BD exclusives (perhaps more then I can afford) that I want this XMAS and plenty of titles that will be available to both formats so I will not be having any letdown because I pick BD for my HD fix.

 

[meStevo]

The new models do not have the PS3 chip in them, the cost of the blue laser is 1/10th of what it was when the PS3 launched last fall, going to a 40GB drive drops the price in half for the harddrive

While he is looking up his sources, can you give me yours for this? I know the new models don't have the PS2 EE chip in them, but would love to hear where the info is for the rest.

 

[Derwin0]

The new models do not have the PS3 chip in them

I think you mean the PS2 chip.

 

[CochiseGuy]

CochiseGuy, Where are you getting your figures on the cost of the PS3. The new models do not have the PS3 chip in them, the cost of the blue laser is 1/10th of what it was when the PS3 launched last fall, going to a 40GB drive drops the price in half for the harddrive and -- oh well, I guess you think that electronics gets more expensive to produce the longer it is on the market.

The $800 cost was the last figure I saw in a trade pub estimate. I assume you mean they dropped the emotion (?) chip that allowed compatibility wiht PS2 game? I'm sure costs have dropped since introduction, but I think blue lasers now 1/10th the cost is a stretch. When I look at the prices for for computer hard drives, the cost difference between 40-60-80 gig drives is a few bucks. And what is with all their revisions - they dropped the original 20 GB drive to go only with the 60 GB, then lower the price for the 60 to introduce the 'new standard' 80 GB. Now the rumored 40 GB? :tux:

Remember I said that statement was a rumor and a very big one at that. The TGS is just around the corner and we will not have to wait long to see if that is in Sony's plans for this XMAS. While I personally don't see this happening it could fit a market out there that everyone including M$ has said is there and Sony is ignoring it.

That, all the model revisions, and my remote problems pushed me to go ahead and eBay my 20 GB while it still has some re-sell value. I know now it's not something I want to have long term, and current eBay listings looks like I can almost what I paid for it.

BTW, Best Buy gave me a new DVD remote free as a replacement. Good service, and I included it in my eBaya listing to hopefully get a few more bucks.

I am glad that you are happy with your HD-DVD. There is just not enough current titles coming out on HD-DVD to make me happy. And certainly having only 4 or 5 exclusive releases of current movies this fall is not enoungh to make me lust after HD-DVD. There will be plenty on BD exclusives (perhaps more then I can afford) that I want this XMAS and plenty of titles that will be available to both formats so I will not be having any letdown because I pick BD for my HD fix.

And I'm glad you are happy with your PS3/BD. That's how I feel after 4+ months of BD, it's not worth it for the 4-5 titles I won't be able to play anymore, and those 2-4 BD's coming out this fall - and those are MGM/Fox titles - for my tastes, I don't like comic book based movies, cartoons (aka 'Animated) and think those POTC movies are dreadful.

The Paramount / Warner / Universal movies will keep me more than busy, espcially this time of year when I am in football heaven.

 

[JoeSp]

PS3 blue laser costs (dated 4/25/07):

GameDaily BIZ: Blue Laser Costs Coming Down; Could PS3 Price Cut Be Far Behind?

And this excerpt from Wikipedia:

Since the system's launch production costs have been reduced significantly as a result of phasing out the EE chip[41] and falling hardware costs.[42][43] The cost of manufacturing Cell microprocessors has fallen dramatically as a result of moving to the 65 nm production process[44][43] and Blu-ray diodes being around $100 cheaper to manufacture.[42][45]

The cumulative reduction in production costs is as follows:

Blu-ray (cost reduction: US$100)
Cell B.E. (cost reduction: US$29 – US$40)
EE removal (cost reduction: US$27)
Chipset Modifications: Sony has removed a CXD9208GP, 2 RDRAM chips (US$5), and some passives and are planning on moving the RSX graphics chip from 90 nm to 65 nm production process and "the unification of separate smaller ICs — such as Bluetooth and Wi-Fi — into single chip solutions and a change to a more specialized Southbridge." (cost reduction: unknown)
This brings the total cost reduction to at least $156 excluding the chipset modifications.

This was taken from the following article:

PlayStation 3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And on the Cell costs front (dated 3/13/07 and note top clock speed of greater then 4mhz):

Technology News: Processors: IBM's 65nm Cell Could Chip Away PS3 Costs

It seems that the costs of makeing a PS3 has come down temendously. Also, congrats on getting your PS3 remote replaced -- BestBuy is pretty good at taking care of those type of problems.

As for BD releases vs HD-DVD releases -- I am a sci-fi nut and I like those Spiderman movies. My guess is that since Spide's movies are top grossers then alot of folks like those movies. And my grandson likes those Disney movies and so do alot of other kids.

I have always said that preferences will drive standalone sales this XMAS. We will see what people really want to watch in HD. My guess is families w/children will chose BD and single adults and much older adults will chose HD-DVD. So, based on your likes the Dreamworks deal is not that appealing to you?

 

[CochiseGuy]

PSince the system's launch production costs have been reduced significantly as a result of phasing out the EE chip.
Sony has removed a CXD9208GP, 2 RDRAM chips.

Hmmm - I guess that's why the older models are holding their value so well - sounds like each new model is progressively stripped down model, hidden under the guise of a different size hard drive. Now all those different sized harddrive SKU's make sense.

So, based on your likes the Dreamworks deal is not that appealing to you?

The DreamWorks Animation deal, no - I've yet to be able to sit through an entire screening of any of the Shrek films.

The Paramount / Dreamworks SKG deal - yes. Transformers, Zodiac, War of the Worlds, Top Gun, Collateral, Star Trek, K-19, Minority Report are all buys for me, to mention just a few.

For my tastes, Fox had the biggest appeal for me on BD. And of all those those release they rushed to announce the day of the Paramount/Dreamworks HD DVD only announcement, Master & Commander and Amityville Horror have already been "postponed indefinitely". I had the 20th Anniversary 2 disc DVD of 'Robocop" on pre-order and canceled only days before release when Fox announced the Blu-ray version. The specs released today - it's the R-rated version only (DVD has both R & Unrated version), and the only extra is the theatrical trailer.

25GB is so cramped for space they can only include a trailer? The 30GB of "Hot Fuzz" on HD DVD has 18 hours of extras.

Yeah, yeah, I know - no one ever watches the extras. Well, I do, I know a lot of folks who also enjoy extras, and IMHO including just a trailer is rushing a project to get it out the door on time - and setting up for the infamous Fox double dip.

 

[JoeSp]

I think some of the studios are a little greedy. They hold off on the extras and I just know that in another 18 months they will release a version with all the goodies. This type of crapola gets under my skin, but then I am buying the disc for the movie not the extras. And I like all of those titles you meantioned and I will especially miss the Transformers, Top Gun and Star Trek items. Maybe if there is still no movement in a clear leader by next summer I will sneak in a HD-DVD player in my system.

 

[GaryPen]

John, tell me, where is the average Joe going to find those Toshiba players?

There's a big pile of 'em at my local Costco. Right next to a big pile of BD players that cost twice as much.

In Circuit City and Best Buy even though they carry the Toshiba HD-DVD players - they do not show them prominently.

They are equally prominent in my local Best Buy.

I also notice that the A2 was sold out for a while at Amazon and a few other online retailers.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[navychop]

Toshiba made a bad bet. They bet on cheap players pulling in the average Joe. Well, the average Joe doesn't even have an HDTV yet, or know how to feed it a high def signal if he does.

Early adopters are willing to pay a premium. Indeed, we have paid- and quite a premium, for those of us that bought our HDTVs years ago. With my $3,000 HDTV, am I more concerned about saving money by buying a $250 player rather than a $500 player? Or am I more concerned about performance, available titles, and format longevity?

 

[r.jones1116]

Toshiba made a bad bet. They bet on cheap players pulling in the average Joe. Well, the average Joe doesn't even have an HDTV yet, or know how to feed it a high def signal if he does.

Early adopters are willing to pay a premium. Indeed, we have paid- and quite a premium, for those of us that bought our HDTVs years ago. With my $3,000 HDTV, am I more concerned about saving money by buying a $250 player rather than a $500 player? Or am I more concerned about performance, available titles, and format longevity?

Either way HD-DVD is the sure bet.

HD-DVD = complete specs @ $250.00
Bluray = half baked @ $500.00

Currently HD-DVD has more studios.
HD-DVD has 31 studios with 303 titles
Bluray has 28 studios with 312 titles.

 

[CochiseGuy]

Toshiba made a bad bet. They bet on cheap players pulling in the average Joe. Well, the average Joe doesn't even have an HDTV yet, or know how to feed it a high def signal if he does.

The 'average Joe' still watches DVD on the $49 player from Wally World.

Early adopters are willing to pay a premium. Indeed, we have paid- and quite a premium, for those of us that bought our HDTVs years ago. With my $3,000 HDTV, am I more concerned about saving money by buyinnd format leg a $250 player rather than a $500 player? Or am I more concerned about performance, available titles, and format longevity?

Good point. Altho not usually such an 'early adopter' - I waited until that $3500 57" Sony RP HDTV dropped to under $2k before buying in - I paid over $600 for my XA1 HD DVD player when the format came out the gate with performance, available titles, and format longevity. And why I recently gave the boot to Blu-ray for not having that.

 

[gchasse]

Toshiba made a bad bet. They bet on cheap players pulling in the average Joe. Well, the average Joe doesn't even have an HDTV yet, or know how to feed it a high def signal if he does.

Early adopters are willing to pay a premium. Indeed, we have paid- and quite a premium, for those of us that bought our HDTVs years ago. With my $3,000 HDTV, am I more concerned about saving money by buying a $250 player rather than a $500 player? Or am I more concerned about performance, available titles, and format longevity?

If this is the case, then the battle for supremacy will last for quite a while. It may be 2 or 3 years before this is resolved.

 

[JoeSp]

What is interesting is that it does not make any differance in standalone sales right now. There is not enough to currently change directions in what limited market there is for high def movie viewing. That said, it is the studios that keep moving the lines in this war. Discs sales is where the real money is at and so far the one studio that is kicking but is Warner. They own both BD's and HD-DVD's shirts right now. That one studio has the most titles coming out over the next 3 months and they are for both formats.

Here is the guantlet guys--HD-DVD wanted a even battlefield and for the next 3 months going into XMAS and now they have it. Lets see who buys the most Warner titles for this XMAS. Because other then Transformers, Star Trek and Shrek 3 the HD-DVD crowd has nothing big coming up that is not also on BD. BD has the new POTC movie, a few Pixar movies and something called Spiderman but who cares -- right? Lets just put all these titles aside and just count the Warner sales. I think this would be a more accurate way of determining who is actually leading this parade. Any takers?

 

[GaryPen]

If this is the case, then the battle for supremacy will last for quite a while. It may be 2 or 3 years before this is resolved.

It'll be over by Xmas '08. I'll bet good money on that. (The date, not on which format will win, that is.)

 

[diogen]

It'll be over by Xmas '08. I'll bet good money on that.

What will constitute a win?
All studios publish in one and only one format?

If yes, I'm ready to take the other side of the bet.

Diogen.

 

[navychop]

"The 'average Joe' still watches DVD on the $49 player from Wally World."

That's my point. The average Joe is not deciding this one. Not unless it stretches out another year or 2, at least. The early adopters are deciding it, at least insofar as buyers have input. They're willing to pay more, and see value in higher capacity, higher potential capacity, higher bit rate, title availability, common use of uncompressed PCM, etc. There's got to be a reason Blu-ray outsells HD DVD around 2 to 1. We may come up with the correct reason, or not. But there's a reason.

 

[Derwin0]

There's got to be a reason Blu-ray outsells HD DVD around 2 to 1. We may come up with the correct reason, or not. But there's a reason.

PS3
People don't want to admit it, but Sony's trojan horse did put more blu-ray players in homes than HD-DVD hopes to have in them.