Ether port two and MRV options

[armchair]

I wonder if Directv would consider adding a user port option for second ether port on the receivers that are equipped with extra port. I would like the option to dedicate bottom port to MRV only and still have top port usable for VOD, Media Share, and DirecTv2PC applications with network.

I suggest this because I think there is a lot of network logistics that effect the performance of MRV and isolating MRV with its own network may resolve a lot issues simply and economically. I've considered just removing the others (VOD, Media Share and DirecTv2PC by removing the ether connection to my home network where PC and INTERNET are) and just use one ether cable between the two HR22's rather than updating my network which could get expensive if I don't buy the right setup or configure it properly.

I think users that have more than two receivers on their network could still use a separate switch or router dedicated to get MRV performance or just not select the option if they're happy with their current setup.

Open to comments, suggestions and yes, even constructive criticism if necessary.

 

[Steve in IL]

I'm a total newbie to this stuff, but for what it's worth... I have one HR21 and one H21 and have been trying to get MRV up and running between them. I had success last night, with the following setup. I have the HR21 on my network via a Belkin 200Mbps powerline adapter, and I have the H21 connected to the HR21 directly using a Cat5e cable from the 2nd ethernet port on the HR21. Seems to work great.

I could not get MRV working by connecting my H21 using a powerline adapter. For reasons I don't yet fully understand, I seem to be getting a very slow connection in my house using powerline adapters. The LED indicators on them tell my my connection is less than 30Mbps, but I don't know how much less. It was apparently way too slow for MRV to work, although it seems to be adequate for things like VOD on the HR21. I believe the direct ethernet connection between the two takes any speed issues associated with my home network totally out of the picture for MRV functionality.

Isn't my setup what you were asking about? Perhaps you are suggesting that this type of setup does not work the same between two HR's as it does between one HR and one H rcvr? Anyway, the setup I described seems to work great for me.

-Steve

 

[armchair]

What I was asking DirecTv to do was dedicate port 2 to MRV by setting it up as a user preference in menu like LOCATION. If I were to connect my DVR's port 2 to port 2 with that option set, the HR22's would know that I intend all MRV streams to be direct through port 2 only. All other features would be done on port one (VOD, Media Share & DirecTv2PC).

 

[cfb]

I'm not sure this is doable, because I'm pretty sure that 2 port network connection is a hardware two port ethernet switch with one ethernet port into the motherboard. I dont think its programmable to become two separate ports.

Your point about the networking is well taken. I ended up putting in a 100Mb/s switch next to my router and moving the directv receivers and the HTPC over to that so the receiver-to-receiver MRV had as little complexity as possible.

My concern with MRV is that due to the bandwidth requirements and the quirky nature of powerline and wireless performance, that very few of directv's customers will be able to make use of MRV or Directv2PC. They simply wont have the infrastructure for it, may not want to spend hundreds of dollars on zero-cable solutions that may not work for them, or have the interest and pocketbook to pull wire.

 

[armchair]

I'm not sure this is doable, because I'm pretty sure that 2 port network connection is a hardware two port ethernet switch with one ethernet port into the motherboard. I dont think its programmable to become two separate ports.

Your point about the networking is well taken. I ended up putting in a 100Mb/s switch next to my router and moving the directv receivers and the HTPC over to that so the receiver-to-receiver MRV had as little complexity as possible.

My concern with MRV is that due to the bandwidth requirements and the quirky nature of powerline and wireless performance, that very few of directv's customers will be able to make use of MRV or Directv2PC. They simply wont have the infrastructure for it, may not want to spend hundreds of dollars on zero-cable solutions that may not work for them, or have the interest and pocketbook to pull wire.

Thanks for replies Steve and cfb.
MRV is unique in that it doesn't need a switch or router to port it but in my case it's a CAT6 wired ether cable. I think once a network cable is connected to such a setup, the network takes all port tasks and makes MRV susceptible to network interference and BW rationing. If I am correct in that thought, there is no ideal network, switch or wireless solution until the user can select direct connection for MRV or just opt to not use VOD, Media Share or DirecTv2PC because those applications require a network connection. If anyone has tested this, feel free to reply. I didn't want to lose VOD and other services but have not used Media Share or DirecTv2PC much but I'm willing to test & go without those long enough to see if I get any improvement. I'll post my findings here in a few days, sooner if I see vast improvement or encounter difficulties.

I removed network cable to isolate my HR22's (connected by one cat6 cable) for MRV only. Without any setup, MRV restarted on its own within the first minute. Testing now.

 

[armchair]

na(202) setup

Thanks for replies Steve and cfb.
MRV is unique in that it doesn't need a switch or router to port it but in my case it's a CAT6 wired ether cable. I think once a network cable is connected to such a setup, the network takes all port tasks and makes MRV susceptible to network interference and BW rationing. If I am correct in that thought, there is no ideal network, switch or wireless solution until the user can select direct connection for MRV or just opt to not use VOD, Media Share or DirecTv2PC because those applications require a network connection. If anyone has tested this, feel free to reply. I didn't want to lose VOD and other services but have not used Media Share or DirecTv2PC much but I'm willing to test & go without those long enough to see if I get any improvement. I'll post my findings here in a few days, sooner if I see vast improvement or encounter difficulties.

I removed network cable to isolate my HR22's (connected by one cat6 cable) for MRV only. Without any setup, MRV restarted on its own within the first minute. Testing now.

Still see a number of audio/video splats and it's hard to say whether there is any improvement at all testing this way except that it appears the duration of the splats are shorter as if the router method takes longer to recover after encountering distortion than the direct method with my cat6 cable connected between the HR22's.

I found that there is still a large number of splats that occur particularly if skipping through commercials and using trick play to skip back. Less splats when letting a HD movie w/o commercials playback without interruption. DirecTv2PC is much more forgiving so I feel MRV still needs some tweaking. I wonder if TIVO ever intended MRV to work with a HD with 5.1 audio?

I did find a way to keep my MRV connected via cat6 direct between the HR22's and still get connected to INTERNET: I started two HD streams and ran Connect & Get Connected without INTERNET cable connected. From there I was able to select wired router and connect while MRV still streaming w/o interruption. I ran test connection which took me to system test which ran OK, then checked more info notes and found that no "STB Services Port" were made through router. I get a

na(202), a dash for status and dash for audio port. Status for Network and Internet are connected. (This is not a problem that I need help with; I want the direct path and still have INTERNET capability.) My only concern is that either MRV will be lost and not be re-established until I re-enable STB ports or my router re-establishes them automatically at some point. I disabled multicast streams and revoked the STB ports previously setup on my router when running HR22 Network Services in Setup so maybe that won't happen as long as I don't run Network Services again. Not sure if MRVCLIENTOFF/ON will change anything or not. I still think a separate setup to specify such preferences would be better than trying to bypass it and hope it stays that way.

I hope TIVO and DirecTv will continue to improve MRV for HD streams. Being that the beta 5313 of DirecTv2PC works better than current MRV release in CE, there's still hope for improvement. I still would welcome comments to this thread and I will post any changes that may occur to my

na(202) setup.

 

[cfb]

BTW, since the receivers you're using have two working ethernet ports (the hr20-100's I have do not), and those ports are effectively switched within the unit, by hooking port one on one unit direct wired to port two on the other, and a wire from port one on that one to your router, you should have a dedicated direct wired 100Mb/s connection between the two HR's, with switched connection to the router and the internet.

The HR acting as the interconnect shouldnt even receive any of the daisy chained HR's data packets, unless they're destined to it.

MRV is still glitchy even on a perfect network.

Network services doesnt really do much right now, and the ability to run them or not doesnt have much of an impact on MRV since MRV doesnt use them.

 

[armchair]

BTW, since the receivers you're using have two working ethernet ports (the hr20-100's I have do not), and those ports are effectively switched within the unit, by hooking port one on one unit direct wired to port two on the other, and a wire from port one on that one to your router, you should have a dedicated direct wired 100Mb/s connection between the two HR's, with switched connection to the router and the internet.

The HR acting as the interconnect shouldnt even receive any of the daisy chained HR's data packets, unless they're destined to it.

MRV is still glitchy even on a perfect network.

Network services doesnt really do much right now, and the ability to run them or not doesnt have much of an impact on MRV since MRV doesnt use them.

Thanks for your replies cfb; glad to see a confirmation on the MRV glitchiness. My setup is back to the one you describe and once I used an INTERNET connection, the

na(202) went away on the receiver I was using and reverted back to its STB port setup. The other one still shows

na(206), I think because I've yet to use an INTERNET connection there yet but MRV still streams. (I've tried to describe that setup in my signature).

While testing a MRV playback of a local NBC HD Wimbledon event this morning, I noticed a lot pixeling errors that were much longer in duration with various green or colorful blotches with some off center orientation of half or more of the screen. This looks to me like a bad switch or low signal. I had one system test failure for low signal with error of 43-150 so I sent error report to DirecTv. I'm beginning to think this may have a lot to do with my excessive MRV glitches as some splats I see will duplicate when RWD back past splat and replaying and finding same error in same place 2 of 3 times but not every time. Low signal I think could also explain why SD MRV playback is virtually flawless while HD is not. I'm sure signal strength in channel to channel comparison could impact as well. I've not had any problem with playback of Noggin on channel 301 and SD VOD playback so that also should be considered.

As far as my network setup is concerned, is it a fair assessment that it is OK if DirecTv2PC is working satisfactorily? I thought about updating the router but was hoping someone would suggest an economical solution but so far it appears I wouldn't gain anything by updating it.

DirecTv Report # 20090629-242C......system diagnostic code 43-150 (satellite signal)

 

[cfb]

I think that if directv2pc is working fine, that the network probably isnt the culprit. My network wears a cape and has a big red "S" on it, and I get glitching several times per show. I direct wired the two HR20's together for a while using an absolutely perfect cable and still had glitching here and there at about the same rate.

I saw a few tidbits about some aspects of MRV having poor recovery processes (at this time) in the event of network issues. But I think much of that had to do with building and maintaining the shared playlist rather than video streaming.

Since going into this CE I'm also seeing some audio and video breakdowns on most (but not all) VOD content, which I think is pretty weird. You'd think that stuff would play back @100% all the time.

 

[armchair]

I think that if directv2pc is working fine, that the network probably isnt the culprit. My network wears a cape and has a big red "S" on it, and I get glitching several times per show. I direct wired the two HR20's together for a while using an absolutely perfect cable and still had glitching here and there at about the same rate.

I saw a few tidbits about some aspects of MRV having poor recovery processes (at this time) in the event of network issues. But I think much of that had to do with building and maintaining the shared playlist rather than video streaming.

Since going into this CE I'm also seeing some audio and video breakdowns on most (but not all) VOD content, which I think is pretty weird. You'd think that stuff would play back @100% all the time.

Some have said they either had no problem with shared list or preferred it over the previous LOCAL/REMOTE list and even stated the option still existed for those who liked it better. But I can only find shared list or local list only. I have not seen the remote list only option. Seems to me like the options available should be SHARED/LOCAL/REMOTE; if so, maybe toggling to remote list would help rebuild the shared list? I'm sure the unstable shared list is a concern for CE team but I hope that the CE team is making the issue of HD streaming a higher priority. This little tester would prefer to go back to older LOCAL/REMOTE list or at least make it an option so the CE team can focus on the HD streaming issue. I often test it with two HD streams going simultaneously to see if it's improved. I'm happy to see it work without stopping mid-way through event so there have been improvements to this issue.

Could the network card in HR series be swapped for a gigabyte switching capability?

Just my two cents worth; but I paid much less for MRV than what D***net**** wanted for SlingTv. I had suggested to them that they could do it with a Ethernet cable but they had already made other plans (may have patent liabilities?). My pockets are not that deep at the moment. And I'm hoping that DirecTv doesn't give up on MRV or even consider hiding that capability with a hidden keyword. If network capabilities are an issue, DirecTv could enact a user agreement policy to use at own risk or have their techs install or troubleshoot networks at a minimum flat rate to eliminate the possible nightmarish volume of tech calls and complaints. I've seen other sites on web offer flat rate of $150 (minus h/w) to install/upgrade/troubleshoot home networks. I think MRV will be released in NR as soon as picture quality is as stable as DirecTv2PC is.

 

[cfb]

Could the network card in HR series be swapped for a gigabyte switching capability?

I'm pretty sure it cant. The chips in question are soldered to the mainboard.

I'm not sure that'd be helpful, as I dont think network throughput into and out of the box is the issue. The HD streams I've metered ran around 12-15Mb/s. I dont do OTA but I understand those streams can be a bit larger. Even at 2x what I'm seeing, there'd be room for 3 full bore OTA video streams in and out of the box.

Two MRV and one VOD is all they do today, so with sat only feeds the network into and out of the HR2x would be at 36-45Mb/s.

I think the glitching problem has to do with some resource inside the box being oversubscribed and it misses a few seconds of displaying to the tv while its preoccupied with something else. These boxes do a ton of realtime full bandwidth things all at the same time...recording up to 2 channels, perhaps DLB'ing two channels, playing back one of them or live tv, downloading vod's, servicing mrv, getting guide data and assimilating it, deciding whether to start or stop a recording, processing prioritizer lists, enumerating keyword autorecords, checking channel authorizations, displaying caller-ID, and responding to the remote control.

I get the feeling that part of each CE cycle involves balancing the priorities and resource allocations that each of these procedures employ until a balance is achieved where everything runs properly and the best residual response time is given to the user interface and local/mrv playback.

If some aspect of the box is running at 100%, I suspect the first thing it does is ignore the UI (remote key presses, displaying menus) and after thats on full ignore, drops local and remote playback. While these are annoying and visible to the customer, it'd be worse if the box failed to properly record a show.

Seems to be what people are seeing in this CE so far. Poor remote response, glitching on playback. I'd imagine that the harder each individual box is made to work (more series links, more channels-i-get, more total recordings, heavy use of dlb or mrv, etc) the worse the response and video playback glitching will be.

Until they find the right set of tuning parameters...

 

[armchair]

...I think the glitching problem has to do with some resource inside the box being oversubscribed and it misses a few seconds of displaying to the tv while its preoccupied with something else. These boxes do a ton of realtime full bandwidth things all at the same time...recording up to 2 channels, perhaps DLB'ing two channels, playing back one of them or live tv, downloading vod's, servicing mrv, getting guide data and assimilating it, deciding whether to start or stop a recording, processing prioritizer lists, enumerating keyword autorecords, checking channel authorizations, displaying caller-ID, and responding to the remote control....

I've seen this once (MRV picture froze 2 or more seconds) and that was a SD recording! I'd prefer better HD playback; the video often splats briefly or on occasion it splats for a longer period of time.

The remote response seems to be less of an issue if restarting the HRx can be avoided. One of mine likes to periodically freeze so I have hit the red button to get it back but this x32c CE seems to be more stable for that one. May have imagined it but I think I may have less Shared LIST problems since I disabled POKE (k/w search POKEEYELATER) but I found another problem with some older first-run series recordings today.

Check this out: http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv...9286-mrv-unable-access-media.html#post1877816

 

[JosephB]

I wonder if Directv would consider adding a user port option for second ether port on the receivers that are equipped with extra port. I would like the option to dedicate bottom port to MRV only and still have top port usable for VOD, Media Share, and DirecTv2PC applications with network.

I suggest this because I think there is a lot of network logistics that effect the performance of MRV and isolating MRV with its own network may resolve a lot issues simply and economically. I've considered just removing the others (VOD, Media Share and DirecTv2PC by removing the ether connection to my home network where PC and INTERNET are) and just use one ether cable between the two HR22's rather than updating my network which could get expensive if I don't buy the right setup or configure it properly.

I think users that have more than two receivers on their network could still use a separate switch or router dedicated to get MRV performance or just not select the option if they're happy with their current setup.

Open to comments, suggestions and yes, even constructive criticism if necessary.

What you suggest would be very difficult if not impossible. First, it's very likely that the receiver only has one network adapter and that the two ports on the back are simply two exposed ports of a 3 port switch, the 3rd being wired directly into the receiver.

It would require massive reworking of the nuts and bolts under the hood, and they're not even done with the first implementation of MRV, and, there would be very little use of the feature. It would simply be too complicated for most users.

If ethernet is not viable for MRV for you, when MRV is released nationally, SWM setups are supposed to allow MRV over coax. If you don't have SWM you might have to upgrade

Unfortunately that is the cost of advancement, the older setups can't always support the new stuff.

 

[rad]

I think that if directv2pc is working fine, that the network probably isnt the culprit. My network wears a cape and has a big red "S" on it, and I get glitching several times per show. I direct wired the two HR20's together for a while using an absolutely perfect cable and still had glitching here and there at about the same rate.

Bingo, same results seen doing the same test.

From the testing I've done with wired, wireless and powerline, if you're seeing pauses in the program that's the network between the two boxes not being able to keep the buffer (which is about 5 to 6 seconds worth) full and getting a faster network or reducing other traffic would help that. IMHO, glitches are not an issue with the users home network and is a problem withing the DirecTV domain.

BTW, on one HR23 I've had it downloading a DoD program, play a video via Media Share (with no problems) and serve a HD program to another box on the network, the client box played as normal with the occasional video glitch, no increase which you would expect of the network was the cause of the glitches.

 

[armchair]

What you suggest would be very difficult if not impossible. First, it's very likely that the receiver only has one network adapter and that the two ports on the back are simply two exposed ports of a 3 port switch, the 3rd being wired directly into the receiver.

It would require massive reworking of the nuts and bolts under the hood, and they're not even done with the first implementation of MRV, and, there would be very little use of the feature. It would simply be too complicated for most users.

If ethernet is not viable for MRV for you, when MRV is released nationally, SWM setups are supposed to allow MRV over coax. If you don't have SWM you might have to upgrade

Unfortunately that is the cost of advancement, the older setups can't always support the new stuff.

Bingo, same results seen doing the same test.

From the testing I've done with wired, wireless and powerline, if you're seeing pauses in the program that's the network between the two boxes not being able to keep the buffer (which is about 5 to 6 seconds worth) full and getting a faster network or reducing other traffic would help that. IMHO, glitches are not an issue with the users home network and is a problem withing the DirecTV domain.

BTW, on one HR23 I've had it downloading a DoD program, play a video via Media Share (with no problems) and serve a HD program to another box on the network, the client box played as normal with the occasional video glitch, no increase which you would expect of the network was the cause of the glitches.

Would MRV over Coax on SWM setup be subject to same DirecTv Domain problems? I was under the impression that the SWM setup with MRV over coax method was no better than powerline.

 

[rad]

Would MRV over Coax on SWM setup be subject to same DirecTv Domain problems? I was under the impression that the SWM setup with MRV over coax method was no better than powerline.

I would have to guess that it would be better then powerline or wireless. With powerline you have to make sure that you're adapters are on the same phase on the panel for the best results and noise on the line can effect the speed. Wireless is subject to the distance limitations and obstructions between the two end points. IIRC MoCA speeds are in the couple hundres megabit range and wouldn't be subject to the problems noted.

 

[armchair]

I would have to guess that it would be better then powerline or wireless. With powerline you have to make sure that you're adapters are on the same phase on the panel for the best results and noise on the line can effect the speed. Wireless is subject to the distance limitations and obstructions between the two end points. IIRC MoCA speeds are in the couple hundres megabit range and wouldn't be subject to the problems noted.

Anyone out there testing MRV with coax on SWM setup?

 

[rad]

Anyone out there testing MRV with coax on SWM setup?

Past experience has been if folks are testing this that they don't talk about it until a "First Look" is published on a new feature or hardware.

 

[JosephB]

There's no public or semi-public testing or details on MRV over SWM other than "it's coming". However, it's possible that they would just send the program over the wire as if it were a satellite signal from an LNB, meaning that you wouldn't have to worry about IP bandwidth.

 

[armchair]

There's no public or semi-public testing or details on MRV over SWM other than "it's coming". However, it's possible that they would just send the program over the wire as if it were a satellite signal from an LNB, meaning that you wouldn't have to worry about IP bandwidth.

Past experience has been if folks are testing this that they don't talk about it until a "First Look" is published on a new feature or hardware.

I'm not trying to restart the Ethernet/SWM debate again but I'm new to this forum and had to do some research on SWM MRV Coax solution for MRV. I thought I should post the link below to anyone else not up to date on MRV SWM solution. When doing a move, consider asking for the SWM switch! Not being aware of this, when I re-signed contract with DirecTv and asked about the SWM switch option, I was told that the managing office for installations makes that decision. The installers install whatever is on the order.


http://www.satelliteguys.us/directv...evolution-report-post1798425.html#post1798425


I'm still hoping the Ethernet problems are resolved and released in NR as well because I thought I had read some thought that the SWM Coax solution may require the use of one or more tuners for MRV (one tuner to send and one tuner to receive). That doesn't seem likely to apply IMO; creating conflicts of that magnitude is not thinking out the box or CE. Anymore thoughts on this SWM MRV solution?