HD Picture Quality

[AekaGSR]

when i get home tonight I'll take a few camera shots of the TV, I'll do it on different channels too and check if im using 129 or not.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

At multiple times in the past I posted about HD PQ problems and there were always people telling me that they couldn't see the problems and it must be my setup. Well, twice I followed up by visiting three of my friends' homes who had E*. In every case I saw the exact same problems on their sets. The problems were definitely in the signal.

Didn't watch Transformers but I see macro pixelation in almost every program I watch. Especially if there is fast motion with reds or oranges in the scenes. Or on low contrast scenes.

In general I've come to believe that if about 10% of the people are complaining about digital compression artifacts being present, then they are right. For whatever reason a lot of people just don't see them, no matter how good their eyesight is or how good their HDTV set is. E* knows this well and counts on it.

 

[primetimeguy]

I think it unlikely that any of those variables are causing problems as severe as macroblocking for some, while others don't see that at all. Yes, the satellite transmission is digital, but if the SNR drops too low, error correction will not be complete. Then error compensation will take over, e.g. freezing the picture or taking some sort of average for regions where the data do not exist.

If it's 129 we're talking about, you are aware of the fact that the satellite is on it's last legs, are you not? Momentum control wheels have failed, and the only reason 129 is usable at all is because they are using little bursts from their attitude control thrusters! So the transmitting antenna is basically scanning back and forth across the country in between thrusts. This means that anyone near the edges of the beam will likely see SNR problems at certain times.

I'll argue that screen size to viewing distance is the biggest factor in being able to see the compression artifacts. If I move back 3ft from my TV most of the problems are no longer visible to my eyes. I currentlt sit 10-11ft from a 57" TV.

 

[primetimeguy]

At multiple times in the past I posted about HD PQ problems and there were always people telling me that they couldn't see the problems and it must be my setup. Well, twice I followed up by visiting three of my friends' homes who had E*. In every case I saw the exact same problems on their sets. The problems were definitely in the signal.

Didn't watch Transformers but I see macro pixelation in almost every program I watch. Especially if there is fast motion with reds or oranges in the scenes. Or on low contrast scenes.

In general I've come to believe that if about 10% of the people are complaining about digital compression artifacts being present, then they are right. For whatever reason a lot of people just don't see them, no matter how good their eyesight is or how good their HDTV set is. E* knows this well and counts on it.

Agree with you 100%.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

At multiple times in the past I posted about HD PQ problems and there were always people telling me that they couldn't see the problems and it must be my setup. Well, twice I followed up by visiting three of my friends' homes who had E*. In every case I saw the exact same problems on their sets. The problems were definitely in the signal.

Didn't watch Transformers but I see macro pixelation in almost every program I watch. Especially if there is fast motion with reds or oranges in the scenes. Or on low contrast scenes.

In general I've come to believe that if about 10% of the people are complaining about digital compression artifacts being present, then they are right. For whatever reason a lot of people just don't see them, no matter how good their eyesight is or how good their HDTV set is. E* knows this well and counts on it.

I believe you 100% E* was out checking out all my equipment, and not a thing was wrong. Just what I thought! He said the E* satellite signal is what causing my problems ,and there is nothing he can do!. He saw it on my tv as well today . Micro blocking what ever its caused by ,needs to be addressed NOW! By the way it cost me $30 for him to tell me this. NOT HAPPY!

 

[TheKrell]

I'll argue that screen size to viewing distance is the biggest factor in being able to see the compression artifacts.

I hate to be such an agreeable person, but I think we're all right! Yes, compression artifacts probably do need a pretty keen eye or close viewing distance to see. But if I understand what people mean by "macroblocking", I claim that's caused by missing or unreconstructable data in the video stream. This is highly visible, unfortunately, for almost anybody at almost any distance. Our receivers are simply doing the best they can given an abysmal SNR.

If you can't stand this state of affairs any longer, put up a bigger dish for 129 like whatchel1 did, or switch to 61.5 if possible. Otherwise you'll have to wait for Ciel-2 next year to get a better signal from 129.

 

[primetimeguy]

I hate to be such an agreeable person, but I think we're all right! Yes, compression artifacts probably do need a pretty keen eye or close viewing distance to see. But if I understand what people mean by "macroblocking", I claim that's caused by missing or unreconstructable data in the video stream. This is highly visible, unfortunately, for almost anybody at almost any distance. Our receivers are simply doing the best they can given an abysmal SNR.

If you can't stand this state of affairs any longer, put up a bigger dish for 129 like whatchel1 did, or switch to 61.5 if possible. Otherwise you'll have to wait for Ciel-2 next year to get a better signal from 129.

If SNR was the issue, wouldn't that be fairly constant on a given channel? And if so, the artifacts would be more constant rather than showing up mainly on high action and motion scenes. In this scenario bit starving would be the issue and not SNR.

Not trying to argue, just trying to sort things out.

 

[whatchel1]

No

If SNR was the issue, wouldn't that be fairly constant on a given channel? And if so, the artifacts would be more constant rather than showing up mainly on high action and motion scenes. In this scenario bit starving would be the issue and not SNR.

Not trying to argue, just trying to sort things out.

Not true in the case of 129. It drifts more than the other sats do so it will vary in strenght more unless you peak the dish in mid north to south figure 8. If the dish was peaked when the bird was in it N peak then the SNR will be weakest when it is in it furtherest S point. So about ever 20 something mins the SNR will be significantly less. Now does that answer the question about the problems with this bird.

 

[primetimeguy]

Not true in the case of 129. It drifts more than the other sats do so it will vary in strenght more unless you peak the dish in mid north to south figure 8. If the dish was peaked when the bird was in it N peak then the SNR will be weakest when it is in it furtherest S point. So about ever 20 something mins the SNR will be significantly less. Now does that answer the question about the problems with this bird.

I'm aware of the 129 wobble and can see the effects on the signal numbers. But never have I seen PQ degredation issues associated with the wobble. If this were the case I'd see pixilation/macroblocking on all programming on a repetitive cycle rather than during high motion and action. Every high action scene in a movie on Cinemax has issues and every action scene does not fall on a wobble of 129.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Transformers is on right now, so I tuned in to check out the PQ. The macro blocking is not nearly as bad as I've seen in other movies, but I've been watching for about 15 minutes now and have seen it 6 times, most of them pretty quick shots. I suspect it would be more frequent if the transformers were red. The fast motion scenes I'm watching are of a yellow transformer.

I'm watching it off of 61.5

 

[Cantonsurroundsound]

Dish markets lies

Because you have to. The customer is always wrong in Dish's eyes.

Yep! That is just another example of the great service you get with Dish, your treated like crap and sold a fake bunch of promises. As anothe person whom DVR'd the list of 80 HD channels and found out Charlie, mr. Dish forgot to mentioned many channels are replicated 2-4 times so true channels in HD is more like 40. They removed the only good HD they had Voom and never marketed it at all.

Here is my fix by July I am going to switch to Directv get 95 HD, a HD DVR, the same amount of channels and just found out American Express has a $50 coupon if you go to Directv so I will save over 625 dollars the first year!:up

 

[kstuart]

If any of these observations are Friday or later, then they are likely caused by software update L510, which changed HD playback for the worse.

The problem is being investigated by Dish, and we should see either a fix or a rollback soon.

Any major macroblocking is likely caused by L510 - it's a similar effect to 129 briefly dipping in signal...

 

[primetimeguy]

If any of these observations are Friday or later, then they are likely caused by software update L510, which changed HD playback for the worse.

The problem is being investigated by Dish, and we should see either a fix or a rollback soon.

Any major macroblocking is likely caused by L510 - it's a similar effect to 129 briefly dipping in signal...

I'm still on 4.49.

 

[Hemi 6.1]

If any of these observations are Friday or later, then they are likely caused by software update L510, which changed HD playback for the worse.

The problem is being investigated by Dish, and we should see either a fix or a rollback soon.

Any major macroblocking is likely caused by L510 - it's a similar effect to 129 briefly dipping in signal...

I'm still on the 4.49 and why would my 612 be doing it as well? Its not a software issue . Its an E* satellite Issue. On the 61.5 and its been noticed on the 110

 

[primetimeguy]

I think some people may be confused as to what macroblocking is. Here are a couple examples I found in a quick search

Video Artefacts - Macro-Blocking

AMV Post Production - Visual Quality

The more extreme the issue, the better defined the "blocks" are.

 

[AekaGSR]

Here are a few pics I took. The blocking looks a bit soft since my sharpness is set fairly soft for the satellite feed. Click for big.

This one is fairly obvious. If you can't see whats going on, a guy is lying on his side firing a gun:


A fairly clean shot for reference:


This one is a bit tricky as one still shows only part of the problem, keep the action going in motion and it is worse than this still can show:

 

[larrylwill]

This months PC world has an article on HD compression getting worse and causing complaints from viewers. Mostly cable, they suggest that Fios is the best and does not apply compression. They also have a letter from a viewer complaining about dish. So the complaints are getting around, its not in our heads like some would have us believe.

 

[Cantonsurroundsound]

and some is dish networks claiming things are HD like the WFN, with rednecks filming fishing with a consumer handycam and then they take that crappy source up converted and say presto tell those consumers it is HD and charge them extra. We lost the only good HD, the Voom HD channels. thanks dish for screwing us!

 

[gadgtfreek]

Cable has been taking a lot more heat on compression. Hopefully Dish will do a little better on the PQ once they move everything to mpeg4 and get a sat up. If not, theyll be sitting with cable and Directv and Fios will be where its at.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

Just wanted to note that my observations on HD PQ above were taken under 4.49.