RTN Problems

[tvropro]

I use silicon grease in the connector then use either RTV or coax seal on the outside. I changed the connector on my C band LNB last year after had to be 10 + years and it looked brand new. I learned the trick of silicon grease in the connector from a guy I know that does commercial satellite installs all over the world.

This is his company: Vincor Limited - Earth Station Antenna and Satellite Communication Product Specialists

 

[Keith Brannen]

May have solved my issue... I use an A/B/C High Isolation push button switch to change from G-18 to G-27 to AMC-4. I think I had some oxidation on the contacts. I started rocking the switches and I noticed that dip on G-18 became less severe. So I took the switch apart took some contact cleaner (the good old stuff with Freon TF) and cleaned all 3 switches in the unit. I put it back together and have been watching The A team on KFDF (11720) without breakup for almost an hour. My signal is bouncing (pansat meter) from 60 to 44 at the lowest. No more severe drops so far.

Now there may still be an issue with RTN that was aggravated by high resistance in my switch because of oxidation. And because my system wasn't running 100% it was showing up here. So My suggestion to everyone with this problem. Check all connections, alignment etc. Anything not up to snuff will cause this to show up more.

Tvropro, glad you have lessened the fluctuation and pixelation. I agree that it probably worsened the situation, much the same as say a dish that was slightly off the "sweet spot" would also experience a greater range in fluctuation.

As I last reported on Thursday, I had seen an improvement and lessened of the big drops. This has continued to improve to now where I still get the fluctuation on 11718 between 44 and 60, but not as violently, more random than before, and without the big crashes. 11798 has also lessened in the fluctuation, is milder, and generally around 45.

I haven't touched the dish since I did a slight adjustment on Tuesday (will probably do a push and pull test today to see if it needs another slight adjustment to improve it).

Now I know absolutely nothing about spot beams, whether they can be changed, focussed, adjusted, etc., but AMC21 does have that Caribbean spot beam. I wonder whether they could be testing, adjusting, etc. it, as it does seem that those of us who have been having the problem the most seem to be mid-west to east coast.

 

[tvropro]

Tvropro, glad you have lessened the fluctuation and pixelation. I agree that it probably worsened the situation, much the same as say a dish that was slightly off the "sweet spot" would also experience a greater range in fluctuation.

As I last reported on Thursday, I had seen an improvement and lessened of the big drops. This has continued to improve to now where I still get the fluctuation on 11718 between 44 and 60, but not as violently, more random than before, and without the big crashes. 11798 has also lessened in the fluctuation, is milder, and generally around 45.

I haven't touched the dish since I did a slight adjustment on Tuesday (will probably do a push and pull test today to see if it needs another slight adjustment to improve it).

Now I know absolutely nothing about spot beams, whether they can be changed, focussed, adjusted, etc., but AMC21 does have that Caribbean spot beam. I wonder whether they could be testing, adjusting, etc. it, as it does seem that those of us who have been having the problem the most seem to be mid-west to east coast.

In have 11720 on now, lowest dip is 29 highest peak is 62, (one studder I just saw). My switch was ratty I could see the quality go all over the place when I wiggled the button. After cleaning it don't change the quality. It's an old OTA antenna high isolation ABC switch that I modified for power passing. Having voltage on contacts will cause an arc when switched and that in itself will cause the contacts to oxidize.

11800 never broke up just was lower than before high is 45, low is 42 right now. I know the pansats meter reads low and responds too fast, While this is good when aligning it can make you think your getting cheated. I wonder what a receiver like's Ice has would show me.

This problem isn't 100% cured but is a heck of a lot better then it was.
I wonder if messing with my dish would help or hurt. I squeezed every little bit out of it a couple months ago.

My dish is suppose to be 2 degree compliant the literature on it is attached. I wonder sometimes though.

Spot beams may be causing the issue, good theory but who knows. Only the ones controlling the satellite would know what kind of pattern etc does what.

At least 11720 RTN is now watchable again

 

[Keith Brannen]

This problem isn't 100% cured but is a heck of a lot better then it was.
I wonder if messing with my dish would help or hurt. I squeezed every little bit out of it a couple months ago.

Was just out checking to see if my dish needed another tweak, and it is at its best where it is currently. The slight tweak I did on Tuesday moved it slightly away from AMC21, and the only noticeable improvement I got was on 12103 V 2222.

At least 11720 RTN is now watchable again

That is the good news. But it's still annoying if you check the signal meter at all, which I seem to do a lot, and not just on RTN because of the recent problems!

 

[tvropro]

Was just out checking to see if my dish needed another tweak, and it is at its best where it is currently. The slight tweak I did on Tuesday moved it slightly away from AMC21, and the only noticeable improvement I got was on 12103 V 2222.



That is the good news. But it's still annoying if you check the signal meter at all, which I seem to do a lot, and not just on RTN because of the recent problems!

I'm going to leave my dish as is since it's working for the most part. I don't want to watch the meter also because it tells me it's working on a wing and a prayer. Glad we have 3/4 fec on RTN with the extra error correction. Could you imagine 7/8 right now

 

[tvropro]

RTN 11720 is back to breaking up so Im PO. I broke out the wrenches and Im out there now, seems moving the dish away from 125 makes the quality very stable. I will report back later what the total retuning accomplishes. To be continued..............................

 

[tvropro]

Well my RTN problems should now be a thing of the past. After realigning the dish my 11720 is high and solid. quality is 59 to 61 no dips. I adjusted the dish to the east (away from 125) and raised the elevation a touch. There is something on 125 that is causing this problem. So anyone having problems get the wrenches out and tune away from 125 you will see improvement. THE END..... I hope

11800 Q stayed the same, wasn't having any problems with that. Wonder if there's some type of data on 121, tr 1 that will only be seen by a spectrum analyzer? 125 is definitely the reason anyone is experiencing problems though, Its not RTN's uplink. If you have problems the only wining move is to do a tune up.

Now that I did all the legwork get the golden wrenches out and start turning

 

[Keith Brannen]

Well my RTN problems should now be a thing of the past. After realigning the dish my 11720 is high and solid. quality is 59 to 61 no dips. I adjusted the dish to the east (away from 125) and raised the elevation a touch. There is something on 125 that is causing this problem. So anyone having problems get the wrenches out and tune away from 125 you will see improvement. THE END..... I hope

11800 Q stayed the same, wasn't having any problems with that. Wonder if there's some type of data on 121, tr 1 that will only be seen by a spectrum analyzer? 125 is definitely the reason anyone is experiencing problems though, Its not RTN's uplink. If you have problems the only wining move is to do a tune up.

Now that I did all the legwork get the golden wrenches out and start turning

Unfortunately, I can't move mine any more away from 125, so I'll have to put up with the signal jumps. I did also experience bigger drops in the afternoon (with the odd pixelation problem) but it is now back to 45 to 60 fluctuations.

First it was 121 screwing around with the RTN frequencies (at least that was "just" a general loss in quality), now it's 125 doing it. I thought satellites within 2 degrees of each other were suppose to co-operate on frequencies to avoid these type of interference problems.

 

[tvropro]

I did also experience bigger drops in the afternoon (with the odd pixelation problem)

When that started happening I went out there and started tuning. I first moved the dish just a bit to the east. My quality jumped to 59 to 61 immediately. So that problem has to be coming from 125. (what is there on that transponder I like to know) Then when I started to tighten it up it started to go down to 45 again so I then moved the elevation up a bit and alternating the two I got the solid 59-61 again while all snugged up.

First it was 121 screwing around with the RTN frequencies (at least that was "just" a general loss in quality), now it's 125 doing it. I thought satellites within 2 degrees of each other were suppose to co-operate on frequencies to avoid these type of interference problems.

There suppose to be H vs V polarity to help in isolation, besides that I don't know if there are any other rules. 2 degrees has always been an issue on C band in what they call the "Cable Jungle". Since I had a 12 foot dish since before 2 degree spacing really started I never had any problems there, but over the years seen the smaller dishes suffer.

I guess the broadcasters don't care much because they always play with reflectors so much larger than we use. They never see these problems, if they did they would surely bitch to the FCC. It's the backyard dish owner using cheap smaller dishes that suffer. There's not much we can do but upgrade our equipment to larger reflectors or ones designed to work better at 2 degree
spacing when issues become a problem beyond the scope of our current setup.

If I could redesign my ADTH antenna I would rotate the reflector 90 degrees. By being taller vs wider that would work better at 2 degree spacing. That's how my Primestar 90 cm is designed. I originally put that up for HITS on G-16 for my 4DTV. It worked extremity well on 99 with 97 next door. When that moved to C band that dish became an orphan. I didn't know what I would point it at. (its currently on AMC-4 for, well you know...starts with a H ends with a N) It would be a great candidate for G-18 but I made a bad judgment when I planted the pole in the concrete. I was really only interested in 99 w and should have put the pole further south. Then it would have had a better sweep of the western arc. Currently my house blocks 70% of G-18. I could add an extension to the pole but don't really want to get involved with that this year, maybe down the road.

Now that I got off the original subject and into dish design etc I'll get back on track. I guess all we can do is the best we can with what we have and upgrade if we have to to stay in the game. I see quite a few of us having to get larger dishes once S-2 goes big time on ku . So we won't have to only shell out for new receivers but new dishes too. I guess it all boils down to the old saying. "If you want to play you have to pay"

 

[tvropro]

Just an update

RTN 11720 has been solid with no wild fluctuations in quality for more than 24 hours. 59-61 q for the most part. Saw it hitting the 70's this morning. So the issue here is officially solved. I guess my dish is 2 degree compliant, just needed a fine tune due to 125 firing up. One happy camper here

 

[Mr Tony]

I noticed tonight after I goofed up and reset the motor (and had to reprogram everything in) is that when the dish is at the right spot I get the following quality
11800-72 solid
11720-72 but squirly...moves between 68-73 all the time

but if i move the dish a dab east then I get
11800-0
11720-solid 73-74

which is really weird. This si the 30" dish

The Primestar dish is rock solid on both...but then the Coolsat 8000 meter sucks. It likes to be stuck on 99 all the time

 

[tvropro]

I noticed tonight after I goofed up and reset the motor (and had to reprogram everything in) is that when the dish is at the right spot I get the following quality
11800-72 solid
11720-72 but squirly...moves between 68-73 all the time

Thats more or less what I experienced. In its original position 11720 was all over the place, when I moved it east solid as a rock. My 11800 stayed the same in both positions.

but if i move the dish a dab east then I get
11800-0
11720-solid 73-74

which is really weird. This si the 30" dish

This isn't all that weird in theory Ice. 11720 is the stronger transponder now. When you tune away from the 125 interference it gets better because of the reduced errors. 11800 because it is weaker falls out of the picture. I have seen this on c band analog for years. You would bump the dish to get rid of a sidelobe being picked up from the adjacent bird. And the weaker channels on that bird would have sparklies. Same concept different delivery system.

 

[netbuilder]

I too have been plagued with this signal issue at 123W. After reading through a link at the FCC, a find PHOTOMAN76 posted in another thread, it seems to indicate that AMC21 is operating at 124.9 instead of 125. The net effect of the orbital change yields a 1.8 degree offset (yeah I know the math don't add up but read for yourself) of the two birds. They also claim:

"The proposed offset would result in AMC-21 moving slightly closer to Galaxy 10R, but the resulting change in the interference environment will be negligible"

Negligible, whatever...I guess they were referring to non-hobbyists

Here is the link: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-148323

ANYWAY...that is my rant

 

[tvropro]

I too have been plagued with this signal issue at 123W. After reading through a link at the FCC, a find PHOTOMAN76 posted in another thread, it seems to indicate that AMC21 is operating at 124.9 instead of 125. The net effect of the orbital change yields a 1.8 degree offset (yeah I know the math don't add up but read for yourself) of the two birds. They also claim:

"The proposed offset would result in AMC-21 moving slightly closer to Galaxy 10R, but the resulting change in the interference environment will be negligible"

Negligible, whatever...I guess they were referring to non-hobbyists

Here is the link: http://licensing.fcc.gov/ibfsweb/ib.page.FetchAttachment?attachment_key=-148323

ANYWAY...that is my rant

You have to remember this. The broadcasters can handle 1.8 degree offset with no problems. Large dishes do that well. None of the signals meant for broadcast stations or cable will comply with what the backyard dish owner wants. We are more or less allowed to tap in to there backhauls and get programming. But we have to have equipment that will work up to the transmission standards they dictate.

 

[Mr Tony]

so true Tvropro...

these are meant for broadcasters...we're just along for the ride

 

[tvropro]

so true Tvropro...

these are meant for broadcasters...we're just along for the ride

The sad part Ice is we always rode along for the ride with all the subscription channels masters. We had the best quality at our fingertips, now quite a few won't let us have the channels anymore even if they are 4DTV compatible. They force programmers like NPS to reuplink some of the channels with poor picture quality.

Then there are others like ESPN/Disney that won't let us have there channels at all anymore. They want to force us to the use pie plates or cable for there services. I remember how happy Disney was to deal with me when they first scrambled with VC-2. They even sent me a limited edition mug set for free for subscribing. These were the days that you delt with HBO, Showtime, Disney, etc direct. There were no 3rd party packagers like NPS. Over the years I delt with all the OEM's in the begining. I was there when NPS opened there doors in 92 and been dealing with them since there humble beginings. There not that humble anymore. Boy have things changed over the years.

 

[grey eagle]

I read a message last night on one of the RTN channels that they were reducing power while they are switching to digital over the air. It said only over the air signal would be reduced. You think this is part of the problem.
I have a Buzz and a Direct Way dish. RTN has been good till about a week ago and it does the dip on several of their channels and I loose signal for a second but WNGS is good. I'm in Victoria Tx (50mi. from the coast.

 

[voomvoom]

That message is talking about the OTA transmitter on the ground. It has nothing to do with the signal strength from the satellite.

 

[Mr Tony]

yep just the OTA is affected and thats due to the analog cutoff next February

 

[grey eagle]

RTN Better and AC3 problem Fixed on PBS

My RTN is better now I repointed a little finer and it's better.
Also I tried picking up AMC 21 and G10 and did get both signals except no Montana PBS and some RTNs were messed up by cross signals.
I pointed Satellite dish at G10 and one at AMC21 .

I Also Fixed the AC3 Problem on my Buzz for PBS Details below deals with that issue that a lot of people have had.
_______________________________________

I posted about this several months back and never did find a reason why the Buzz would only get Ac3 on Ch 513
(Equip: Buzz 2010F Plus - 2 Fortec .04 lnbs on a Fortec 90cm dish and a Directway dish)

I tried everything I thought but nothing worked. When I blind scanned it never showed any of the PBS channels. I manually put them in.
Anyway I thought I'd try again when they moved to AMC 21. Same thing. I read in several post about putting a check in the box for AC# audio. The Buzz had no such box on the input template for transponder.
The channel list in the Buzz had no info for PBS stuff from the factory like the other satellite transponder list.
I down loaded the new Channel Master Program and managed to upload my list to it by using the Viewsat receiver as the type (the SonicView receiver choice kept failing.)
I managed to get it loaded and sure enough there was no AC3 on these TP channels. I checked the" AC3 audio option and put in the audio pid and chose Eng as the language. I did this on all of them.
Then Exported as a Buzz receiver type bin name.
Then I used an older version of CM that would download to the buzz properly and did a save.
I HAVE AC3 on All of my PBS Now !
after the download I did had to reassign my diseq to each dish I
have as they reset to off.
The old CM loader had no option for AC3 but the new one does.
There may be several other types of receivers that have the same problem so this may get you working for AC3.
Grey Eagle